Ambassador for the new age of digital challenges

Schaar: Mrs Klodt-Bußmann, we are delighted to introduce you today. After your studies, you first worked in practice and now you are teaching the young generation, the digital natives, here at the faculty, which makes me curious: Who are you and what made you decide to be here?

Klodt-Bußmann: I've been at the university since 2012 and teach business law, mainly international business law. My path to the university was not entirely straightforward. I initially studied economics in Constance and switched to law after a semester abroad in Marseille, France, and completing my intermediate diploma. I spent the first state examination and my legal clerkship in Constance, but again with a few breaks abroad, such as for an internship in a law firm in Sydney, Australia, or at the German embassy in Rabat, Morocco. Languages and intercultural experiences were my passion from the very beginning and have shaped my future career path and probably made it possible in the first place. I was able to gain my first professional experience in an international commercial law firm in the area of M&A, still completely ‘undigitalised’ [laughs]. It was there that I learned to really appreciate my knowledge of economics and realised that this combination is indispensable for many activities. It is precisely this mix that has fascinated me ever since.

Schaar: So where were your first steps as a corporate lawyer? I'm asking because ‘in-house counsel or legal advisor’ doesn't have as long a tradition in companies as, for example, the areas of sales or purchasing. Did you already call yourself an in-house lawyer?

Klodt-Bußmann: I took my first steps as a corporate lawyer in 2004 in Munich at Knorr-Bremse AG in the traditional centralised, group-wide legal department. Of course, lawyers have a very long tradition in the company. What is new is the understanding of the role of the legal department and the associated corporate lawyers. The legal department now takes the lead in many areas and projects. As a result, in-house lawyers are no longer only confronted with legal issues in isolation, but also bring together the commercial interests in the projects. It was precisely this way of working, becoming a ‘player’ in the operative business, familiarising myself with the technical know-how and working with the most diverse departments and subsidiaries in the Group that excited me from the very beginning.

Schaar: ...an unusual path. Your experiences from all your stations make me want to find out more about your everyday life and your motivations. You can't go halfway, can you?

Klodt-Bußmann: No, all or nothing!

Schaar: Exactly! And that's where we move on to the number one competitive asset, information or knowledge management itself, which is what drives us, namely digitalisation. What is your experience with this topic, how have you discovered, experienced and accompanied digitalisation in the last 10-15 years, and what significance does it have today?

Klodt-Bußmann: Digital transformation is now very important to me. Nobody who seriously wants to give the younger generation a good start to their careers in the field of commercial law can escape this high priority. I have been closely involved in the transformation so far. My professional life actually began in the analogue world, for example ‘in a physical data room reeking of sweat’. I still remember my first project very well in a small meeting room in a business centre, 20 people, each with a folder from the endless ‘folder wall’ in front of them and a dictation machine. The texts for the due diligence report were dictated, the tapes stacked on the table, taken to the office and typed up there. Today, this process is usually replaced by a virtual data room that you log into online. After all, PCs and, gradually, laptops had already become established by the time I was a student. But in the first few years I still signed a lot of letters, which have now mainly been replaced by emails. Nowadays, some students consider emails to be ‘conservative’ or outdated... At the company, I witnessed the transition from physical to digital file management. The more than 170 folders in investment management were also migrated to digital systems.

Schaar: I wrote my thesis on a typewriter, which is unimaginable today. Discs no longer exist, cassettes no longer exist, and so on, so all these elements that we still value were transition stations along the way. Which of course brings me straight to the topic, Ms Klodt-Bußmann, how do you want to teach students today, young people, that on the one hand digitalisation is something that we can no longer do without, but on the other hand you will also give them other messages, namely experiences from your own life, take your time but don't stand still, or how do you handle it?

Klodt-Bußmann: The healthy mix is the challenge. On the one hand, we want to leave students optimally prepared for the digitalised professional world. On the other hand, we are also observing that the increasingly digitalised daily routines of students are creating new problems in some cases. In other words, we have been noticing for around 5 to 6 years, since WhatsApp started to take off for example, that students are less willing or perhaps even less able to plan, structure and use their everyday lives efficiently. The constant availability and networking in groups means that personal face-to-face communication at an agreed time is neglected. People communicate and plan spontaneously and in between throughout the day. As a result, the day no longer has a thematic structure and all activities are disrupted by communication on a wide variety of topics and different groups, often with the consequence that there is a lack of proper free time to balance out the day in addition to concentrated work. At this point, we try to promote the planned ‘analogue’ face-to-face collaboration. In our opinion, physical, face-to-face meetings are essential for efficient collaboration and the further development of students' personalities. We also attach great importance to personal interaction and discussion with students in our lectures. We are convinced that the personal level in particular must never be forgotten alongside the digitalised world, even later in the company. You can't replace everything with digitalisation.

Schaar: You started here in 2012 in the Department of Business Law and then, as the youngest child, you started the Master's degree programme...

Klodt-Bußmann: ... and helped to set up the programme. Our faculty started back in 2010, two years before I joined. We started in 2010 with the Business Law degree programme, which has been very successful ever since. It is still the programme with the most applicants at our university. Prospective students clearly recognise the advantage of pursuing a degree in business law as a future corporate lawyer - in other words, a combination of law and business. As a result, we quickly recognised the need to create a Master's degree course in Legal Management (LL.M.) as a follow-up to the Bachelor's degree in Business Law. Students now have the opportunity to develop from business lawyers to legal managers. Our Master's programme has been in great demand not only among our Bachelor's graduates but also among graduates from all over Germany since it was established in 2014.

Schaar: Now that you have studied law, would you prefer to be a business law student at your university today?

Klodt-Bußmann: There is actually no abstract added value for one degree programme or the other. Studying business law is really an aliud to studying law! The choice of study programme should depend on your future plans. If you plan to work as a corporate lawyer later on, take on association activities, work in selected international organisations or in individual official areas, I would prefer to study business law today. The reasons for this are obvious. The combination of in-depth knowledge of business law and economic knowledge brings great added value, particularly in and for the company or organisation. The isolated view does not reflect the reality of the company. The link between the two areas is also supported by practical teaching. For example, our students are already familiar with non-disclosure agreements from their lectures and have already drafted one themselves. They have gone through business planning games, carried out an M&A due diligence as a case study and worked full-time in a company for six months during their practical semester. The majority of our students also write their final thesis in a company. In this way, they learn from the outset to translate their theoretical knowledge into practical solutions in line with the input from the company. Our way of working and teaching thus differs significantly from the traditional law degree programme. We also see this as a clear competitive advantage in terms of the activities mentioned.

Schaar: Do your students know this when they enrol? In your experience, do the young people that you now have in your care, namely those who are allowed to teach, do they even realise the added value of practical integration?

Klodt-Bußmann: That is always the question. So, perhaps I can add one more thing. If you are clearly planning to go into the legal profession, become a judge or public prosecutor or want to go in a different direction where the state examination is a prerequisite, then of course you have to advise young people to study law. On the other hand, it is obvious that the future corporate lawyer should prefer to study business law. The law degree programme contains content that they generally do not need in their day-to-day work in a company; the business law degree programme, on the other hand, covers many topics of the corporate world in depth that they do not find at all in the law degree programme.

Schaar: Not an easy preliminary decision, is it?

Klodt-Bußmann: ...many students have clear plans for the future, clearer than I had at that age. Some are undecided and try it out, then learn very quickly - also through our support - which path is the right one for them. We have young people who switch to a full law degree because they realise that only legal subjects are their passion and they can imagine becoming a lawyer or judge or similar. There are also numerous students who miss the business reality and practical relevance of studying law and switch to business law. I can understand this orientation phase very well. I switched from economics to law myself...

Schaar: Practice and digitalisation, legal tech for corporate lawyers - inseparable? Are they also an integral part of your curriculum?

Klodt-Bußmann: Absolutely! We also appreciate ‘external’ support in this area. Among others, we work together with an expert in the field of legal tech and (legal) design thinking, Ms Astrid Kohlmeier. Innovation and law is her passion. She is a fully qualified lawyer and combines this with being a designer. Together with her, we took a comprehensive look at the current state of development and subsequently worked out how we can and must strategically incorporate digitalisation into our curriculum. We have already made corresponding changes to both the Bachelor's and Master's programmes. In the Bachelor's programme, lecturers are incorporating digitalisation into their teaching areas themselves, depending on the current state of development. We have also created a ‘Legal Tech’ course in the compulsory elective subject area and are planning to further expand the elective subject area on topics relating to digitalisation. We have even gone further in the Master's programme. We have adapted modules in the first and second semesters to the requirements of digitalisation. From the coming winter semester, the curriculum will include the course ‘Management of Digital Transformation’ in the first semester and a course on digitalisation in the second semester. In this way, we want to ensure that, in addition to the integration of digitalisation in the individual events, the relevant areas are also represented in a focused manner.

Schaar: You have already brought up the latest child of this legal tech madness, this path, this speed, design thinking, which is actually nothing new...

Klodt-Bußmann: Does the term mean anything to you?

Schaar: Of course!

Klodt-Bußmann: Yes, unfortunately, many lawyers refuse to accept the concept of (legal) design thinking. The basic idea of design thinking is the development approach from the perspective of the consumer, user, client, etc.. When I take this up with other lawyers, it is often argued that this is ‘old hat’, that it has always been self-evident that only services that are actually needed are offered... Well, I think people fail to realise that the design thinking approach has taken on a whole new meaning, especially in the course of digitalisation and the applications developed in this context. Not all applications are aimed at lawyers, but rather directly at potential clients or legal laypersons in general in a wide variety of everyday and professional areas. As the lawyer is often no longer involved in the application at all, the consumer perspective is the new challenge for numerous applications developed and to be developed in the legal field.

Schaar: Yes, I share this observation. LegalTech, RegTech, FinTech etc. is hype everywhere. Many people think that information and expertise will make our everyday lives easier. Far from it! Only what we are prepared to give ourselves will arrive in everyday life. Thinking a little differently is not enough; thinking a little differently does not mean we should sit back and wait.

Klodt-Bußmann: The younger generation, our students, think very pragmatically. For example, they recently asked me if I could please punch holes in the sheets before they are handed out. As a student, I wouldn't have even asked for the sheets to be handed out and therefore considered the question inappropriate at this point. The students see it quite differently. They tend to identify impractical processes without emotion and look for practical solutions. In my example, I could not and did not want to provide the requested solution. But this way of thinking by the younger generation has practical advantages in the further development of digitalisation; the younger generation is already in the middle of implementing conceivable solutions, while ‘we’ still have to think about such solutions, especially in the digital world, they are far ahead of us with this way of thinking.

Schaar: For me, strategy, communication and sustainability are synonyms that I associate with enterprise information management. Even and especially in digital communication, values such as culture and a proclamation of decency should not be lost. In this respect, the topic is also part of teaching for me. Commitment comes from transparency. Compliance is part of the code of values of many companies today. How do you reach or win over your students?

Klodt-Bußmann: We try to exemplify the values you mentioned on an interpersonal, personal level and pass them on in our dealings with students. In addition, the relevant topics are the subject of numerous events such as compliance, corporate governance, corporate social responsibility and leadership, to name just a few examples. We also attach great importance to analogue events, especially in the first semesters. For example, we have an absolute ban on mobile phones and laptops in courses, particularly in the first semester of the Bachelor's programme. Research workshops and the like are of course excluded from this. These either take place in our PC lab or students bring their own laptops. For all basic topics, we therefore mainly work in the old world. In constitutional law in the first semester, for example, we hold discussions about politics, values, basic rights... simply from person to person. In our opinion, this is also an important building block on the way to becoming a commercial lawyer with the values and skills you mentioned.

Schaar: Language and texts - a legal asset. Are you worried or do you notice the excesses of some social brutalisation of language?

Klodt-Bußmann: Unfortunately, I have to answer this question in the affirmative, but I would like to differentiate. The brutalisation of language that is currently being observed in politics is not the main problem here at the university. Unfortunately, we are increasingly observing ‘somewhat dilapidated’ language skills among students. Spelling, grammar and style in particular leave a lot to be desired among many students - including native German speakers. I create a certain incentive to improve here, for example in the first semester, by awarding points for language in exams...

Schaar: No.

Klodt-Bußmann: Yes, because I maintain that commercial lawyers must either prevent problems, be problem solvers or solve conflicts afterwards. Which conflict resolver is worth a single cent if they are not able to make unambiguous statements linguistically? That is why business lawyers must always find the absolutely correct way of expressing themselves, regardless of the form they use, whether they utilise new techniques or their own language. And we are working hard on this. Unfortunately, many young people no longer have these linguistic skills, even the absolute basics, from school, such as correct comma placement, capitalisation or the distinction between ‘that’ and ‘that’...

Schaar: ... Are you also a German teacher?

Klodt-Bußmann: [hahaha] Partly. Language is extremely important to us. We are concerned about the decline in language skills (perhaps due to digitalisation). But I think in our profession we have to be tough on this point... unfortunately we don't always get praise from the students for this!

Schaar: The gratitude comes later...

Klodt-Bußmann: Maybe. But I think we can only point the way for the younger generation and support them accordingly. We ourselves don't know exactly where the development is going. As I said, I believe that language will remain important in our legal field, even if we increasingly make digital system solutions our daily companions. A system is only as intelligent as it is fed. Clear content is also required here, regardless of the form.

Schaar: Yes, and artificial intelligence is a combination of technology and (learning) content. AI is constantly learning through learning input and that comes from us humans. This is an opportunity for us in terms of suitability for everyday use and speed.

Klodt-Bußmann: Certainly. Numerous helpful applications are already integrated into the day-to-day work of many legal departments, such as automated file management, document checking in due diligence, the automated creation of standard contracts with the help of templates and sample clauses, document comparison in contract negotiations, etc., to name just a few examples from the legal department.

Schaar: Keyword legal department, which is becoming increasingly important as a link in the administrative organisation. The change in the job description of in-house lawyers ‘from legal adviser to business adviser’, from lone fighter to team player is a challenge. What message do you convey to your students?

Klodt-Bußmann: With our combination of law and business subjects, we try to prepare our students for precisely this challenge in the key position of legal department. In addition, the integration of soft skills and English play an important role in our curriculum. But we also believe that working in workshops, case studies, project work in groups etc. as well as the special selection of examination forms such as negotiation simulations, business meetings, presentations or the simulation of press conferences are important course contents on the way to becoming a successful business lawyer.

Schaar: How do you promote a change of perspective towards responsibility, especially in the Master's programme? Do you also provide leadership training or something similar, which must also be very practice-orientated...?

Klodt-Bußmann: Yes, our Master's curriculum includes a course on ‘Leadership’, which is very practically orientated in cooperation with companies. In addition, the change of perspective from advisor to manager is consciously trained and practised in various other courses. This should enable students to consider decision-making criteria and options for action and to develop practical solutions and alternative courses of action from different perspectives. We also teach students to face economic and legal challenges in equal measure. For this reason, some courses are taught jointly by a law professor and a business professor.

Schaar: Courageous and clear. You practise a change process from theory to practice, i.e. the best preparation for everyday professional and corporate life, in which the culture of values is increasingly becoming an important driver of law and compliance?

Klodt-Bußmann: Yes, that's right. It's about the professional and personal side of people. We focus on both sides. On a professional level, we provide very practically orientated training in the areas of law in accordance with our curriculum. On a personal level, we try to provide strong support. My main concern is that people show backbone, contribute their own opinions and are able to stand by them. I try to show in several very specific examples that the honest path may not always be compatible with a quick career leap, but that it leads to the right goal in the medium and long term - with decency, morality and justice.

Schaar: Okay. What does your potential in-house lawyer look like or how does your ideal candidate as a graduate of the Master's programme see the world of his future tasks?

Klodt-Bußmann: In any case, in-house counsel must be prepared for the fact that the legal department is increasingly becoming a kind of business unit that is being made easier in many areas thanks to digitalised support. However, they will also have to face up to the reality that their colleagues in the company, the clients of the legal department, will increasingly be able to obtain information independently in the digitalised world. The task of the legal department is changing considerably as a result of this shift in knowledge. It remains crucial that the business lawyer provides the added value of the overall legal context by advising the company, implementing this in an economically valuable and legally correct manner. This combination will always remain the decisive task of the legal department.

Schaar: Economically valuable co-operation in the company with the various core areas does not mean without core competence. It used to be said that contracts are the basis for successful business, but the honourable businessman is (unfortunately) only to be found in the educational films of the last century. The good old handshake! What is your opinion on the positioning of contracts? A valuable asset, the culture of dispute, the plaything of any moral decay or an important element of dispute in co-operation between partners?

Klodt-Bußmann: Contracts will of course remain the basis, in whatever form, whether they run directly as a smart contract, digitised somewhere using blockchain technology, or whether we write them down, sign them personally or provide them with an eSignature, it doesn't matter. Well-negotiated contracts provide the basis for collaboration. The best contracts are those that have been negotiated so well that they can be implemented ‘in the drawer’, i.e. they can be lived without disputes. The culture of dispute varies greatly from company to company. In some cases, there is a welcome trend towards preventative conflict resolution in the form of project-accompanying committees that identify potential conflicts before a dispute arises and try to resolve them immediately before they become a dispute. There is considerable economic and therefore motivational potential in a positively worded contractual clause on this.

Schaar: Mr Holmström and Mr Hart were awarded the 2016 Nobel Prize in Economics for this. A behavioural revolution for motivational measures in the contract. The motivational element, is that what you have just described?

Klodt-Bußmann: Definitely. A successful contract usually contains both components, positive incentives to fulfil the contract and a clear liability regime for cases of damage.

Schaar: You've mentioned digitalisation buzzwords several times, eSignature, blockchain, smart contracts, so you're up to date! Are you ahead of the students when it comes to the digital world? Out of conviction and motivation or just due to ‘teaching duties’?

Klodt-Bußmann: [laughs] ...out of motivation and conviction. I definitely want to be ahead of the students when it comes to teaching. If we want to give them a good start to their careers, we can't avoid knowledge in the field of digitalisation. That's why I'm expanding the relevant network at conferences, among other things, and using them to exchange ideas with colleagues and visionaries.

Schaar: And where do we stand in Germany in terms of digitalisation? No. 1 or the middle ages? [Laughter]

Klodt-Bußmann: I think we are still lagging behind in European comparison, but we are finally on the right track, which we should take a little faster than before so that we don't lose touch and catch up again.

Schaar: ...unfortunately I agree with you. But when I look around here in your faculty, the trend is not passing you by. It's clear that you are at the forefront of digitalisation. The IT lab is also impressive. Everything on track?

Klodt-Bußmann: We have already achieved a lot, but unfortunately we still have filing cabinets. You could say we're still in the hybrid phase! [both laugh].

Schaar: I would like to compliment you - also to the team. I think you have a very pleasant atmosphere, almost like a creative zone. Has the trust in digitalisation already reached everyone, is everyone on board? Or are you right in the middle of the change process with a lot of passion, care and respect, or are you getting out the proverbial ‘digital club’?

Klodt-Bußmann: We are not getting out the ‘digital club’. Rather, we are gradually trying to digitise parts, for example with the help of our online learning platform that accompanies courses instead of handing out copies. We are currently trialling the video recording of events at the university. A holistic digital system for information and knowledge management, such as the platform you offer, is certainly the long-term goal. Endless searching for documents should soon be a thing of the past. However, in order to successfully implement such a system, everyone must see it as an opportunity and not a burden. With an easy-to-use and comprehensive digital approach to filing things consciously and transparently for everyone, we have already reached the first stage. Steps 2, 3 and 4, the long-term organisational improvement through automated processes, the integration of AI and supplementary components such as blockchain, will keep us busy for generations to come. Digitalisation must be measured in terms of benefits, not just IT visions.

Schaar: Your answer inspires me. It shows that you combine digital GMV with a focus on benefits. Formulating the path as a goal means either taking the seven-mile shoes or choosing the path of small, reasonably feasible steps. Which is yours?

Klodt-Bußmann: I would favour reasonably feasible steps. The path of small but deliberate steps, from planning to correcting expectations and analysing results, is definitely a successful path. Don't bunker down, but present, open up and organise transparently. This applies to us at the university just as it does to companies. We are observing a strong demand for legal tech topics for final theses. Legal and compliance departments are taking advantage of the opportunity to work on potential digitalisation topics with our students, such as the question of the right contract management system. Lawyers as project managers of digital change - not a dream, but a reality. This is the approach we take every day, both as teaching staff and as students.

Schaar: So is the often-described generational issue - digital native & immigrant - not present in your organisation? Are the different approaches, experience-based methodological thinking or different change management awareness between the generations not a barrier to digital change?

Klodt-Bußmann: Yes, we share this perception. Whether it's fear, mistrust or boldness, everything can be seen in one place or another and in one decision or another. I believe that the fear or mistrust of new technology must also be respected and that some people need to be ‘picked up’ a little more intensively. In my opinion, digitalisation should not wait until the analogue generation has grown out of working life. Instead, we need to demand respect and consideration from the younger generation too. In my opinion, a very good way to pick up employees who are still sceptical or simply helpless about the innovations is to provide assistance such as your - for me very impressive - introductory film for employees for your customer Burda [editor's note: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeNAVRJ39Wg].

Schaar: Yes, we are proud of these explanatory videos and practical examples, because they are made from the perspective of the user and not through IT glasses. Your trained Bachelor's and Master's business lawyers will hopefully help to shape such experiences in many cases. You are paving the way for this. So do you have to be a pioneer, a visionary, a pragmatist or all of the above?

Klodt-Bußmann: A bit of everything. That's what makes my and our teaching work so interesting, exciting and multi-faceted at the moment. We are teaching in a time of digital upheaval, in which we are challenged to move with the times, but also to let go of old patterns and ways. This is where our students often help us by focussing their interest and ideas on the ‘new world’, which in turn inspires us. The great interest in our degree programmes on the part of prospective students as well as the large and daily growing demand for our graduates motivate us and also confirm us on our path.

Schaar: Mrs Klodt-Bußmann, thank you very much for the interesting interview. It has given us a lasting insight into the world of legal education, which meets the entrepreneurial challenges in the areas of business, legal & compliance in a valuable and practical way. The proximity to practice, the endeavours of the teaching staff not only to experience everyday digital life, but also to shape it, became vividly perceptible in this interview.

Thank you very much for your time and I wish you continued success in your professional and personal digital transformation process.