What moves us the most is digitalisation, that is legal tech

The BUJ has developed extremely rapidly in order to shape this profession and to bring the Syndikusrechtsanwaltsgesetz into being. We now have around 2,300 members in the association, from almost 1,200 companies with 28 of 30 DAX companies, hidden champions to very small legal departments, a very broad spectrum. The association was founded on 11 March 2011 in order to promote and help shape the professional legal situation, the equality of in-house lawyers and syndicates with self-employed lawyers and lawyers employed by legal employers. Up to that point, the BGH had assumed the dual profession theory. According to this theory, we in-house lawyers worked as lawyers in private practice on the one hand and in companies on the other. The discussion had been going on for a very long time and there was no progress. At the time, Ms Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said: "If the BUJ, the BRAK and the DAV agree on what the job profile of in-house lawyers should look like, then they can come back and I'll do something for them. But nothing happened. There were still too many differences. Then came the judgements of the Federal Social Court, which acted as a real catalyst. The momentum that developed helped us - together with other associations - to get the law passed. Above all because we, as experts, held many discussions with politicians in order to achieve professional equality. In the end, the BUJ largely achieved professional equality through the law.

Steffen Schaar: As we have all been able to read, the professional law has been clarified - so tick the box and move on?

Ms Ebner: No, you can't put a tick in the box yet. It is now particularly interesting. We have achieved a high degree of equalisation with the law. The work on implementation and authorisations is only now really getting going. Some bar associations are taking a very progressive approach, others are not. We also have the professional duties that are being introduced into the organisation. There is a lot to do here and we continue to contribute our expertise from practice. And ... (smiles)... the major strategic issues are particularly important to us. We address issues that are of particular concern to in-house lawyers, our members.

Steffen Schaar: For example?

Ms Ebner: Digitalisation and the associated LegalTech. Digitalisation is turning everything upside down at the moment. You can see it in all areas, take the fintech sector (editor's note: financial services & technology), PayPal came along a few years ago. Everyone was amazed at how it could work. Now we're talking about blockchains and bitcoins. The main issue here is the elimination of intermediaries. In the area of legal departments, LegalTech solutions are now increasingly coming onto the market.

Steffen Schaar: Legal departments are growing and becoming increasingly important in the organisational structures of agile and successful companies. As an association representative, how do you feel in practice about the acceptance and appreciation of your members or compliance in the company?

Ms Ebner: I think the image of in-house lawyers in companies has changed a lot. But you are right: the tasks in company processes have also changed a lot. Let's take the example of compliance, the scandals are well known. The realisation has grown that it is not only necessary to bring the law into the company, but to pay even more attention to ensuring that compliance permeates and determines the corporate culture. If we now look at this development further, it is clear that the legal area is becoming increasingly important due to compliance awareness, increased regulatory measures and laws from the EU and Germany. While in many legal departments, in-house counsel is still perceived as an advisory function in the company, i.e. as a legal support function, he is now increasingly becoming a co-designer in the company. Interdisciplinarity is the keyword that is so strongly associated with digitalisation.

Steffen Schaar: Digitalisationneeds trendsetters, pioneers and convincing examples. Dear Ms Ebner, I have seen you as such in many publications and lectures. And yet ... the tiresome practice: Professor Susskind described this in his three-phase model "denial - resourcing - disruption". The "denial phase" - are we complaining too much? Or do you have other experiences?

Ms Ebner: No, you're absolutely right. I also experience very strongly in the discussions that there are certain fears. I think it has to do with the fact that too much is still unknown. For some colleagues, the use of legal tech consists of Outlook and Excel. At the moment, you often read in the newspapers about digital transformation, Industry 4.0 and that 50% of jobs will no longer exist in 20 years' time. Fear? Panic? Mood-mongering? I am of the opinion that LegalTech can effectively improve legal advice and, on the other hand, lead to a shift in our tasks. You have to be prepared to go along with this shift, this change. The lawyer 4.0 is now in demand.

Steffen Schaar: Agility, mobility and digital change start with each individual. You call it LegalTech, form specialist groups to take up the topics and anchor them in practice in a structured way in the organisations. How can you as the BUJ convey these visions to in-house lawyers in their day-to-day work?

Ms Ebner: The specialist groups and regional groups are at the heart of our association: This strong, reliable network, this exchange of expertise that we create. That's why, for example, we set up the Digitalisation specialist group and the LegalTech specialist group, which make these topics tangible in a practical way. Our strength lies in the fact that we are so incredibly broad and cross-sectoral. We have general counsels, legal counsels and compliance officers, among others, as members; younger as well as experienced colleagues who contribute their expertise accordingly. They work enthusiastically in our specialist and regional groups and network at our summits in addition to exchanging expertise. On the one hand, this dialogue and exchange of experience gives us a feel for being at the cutting edge of the times and, on the other, we get feedback on what our members are actually interested in at the moment. You could say that communication is at the heart of what we do! The competent professional exchange of ideas in the specialist groups is the root of our enthusiasm and the reason why many people join the BUJ. I myself am a member of the Professional Law Section, the LegalTech Section and the Digitalisation Section, so that I can keep my finger on the pulse and understand how we can help shape things. The special thing about our association is that we are recognised as experts and advocates from the field. Who better than us to tell politicians what practitioners need. We are the ideal link between practice and politics. We proved this by launching the Syndikusrechtsanwaltsgesetz and we will do so again with conviction when it comes to digitalisation and LegalTech.

Steffen Schaar: Now I also understand the reason for your latest study, which you launched as the BUJ: "Digital, Economy and Law". You were surprised by the positive attitude and open-mindedness of the respondents. Subjectively, we actually experience something different. Do you believe your gut feeling or your own study?

Ms Ebner: Of course I believe our study. Of course, we are experiencing certain fears about digitalisation: will my job disappear, how will these changes affect me personally? Due to the previously mentioned "denial phase", I was also a little unsure as to whether the legal departments are ready to say that we see it as an opportunity, as a challenge, that we want to help shape it. But change also comes from realisation. The great thing about the study is that we now realise that we can help shape this change through our association. We have also set ourselves the task of saying that we want to help shape change, help us, give us your input. Then we can implement it accordingly.

Steffen Schaar: Anchoring digitalisation in companies in dialogue with employees across all structures, transparently, compliantly and interdisciplinarily - that is a core thesis of Enterprise Information Management. In practice, this means jointly creating digital, transparent, secure and integrated processes within the administrative responsibility of the divisions. No more tunnel vision! How do the members accept this?

Ms Ebner: It always depends on the individual. The person who is used to working in a team and in an interdisciplinary way, who is open to new topics, will also be successful in the company. They will reflect this openness and work in an interdisciplinary way. But there are also those colleagues who bury themselves in their own office and say: "I'm just going to do my legal advice now." My model of the lawyer 4.0 looks different and it won't work any other way. The only way to survive is through close interdisciplinary integration with the business from the outset, with all areas, especially with IT. On the other hand, the business must also recognise the importance of legal advice and involvement. Due to the ever-increasing level of regulation, it will also be difficult to implement new business models and products in areas without legal expertise.

Steffen Schaar: You speak from the heart. As the initiator and jury member, we motivate and reward organisations with the DiALOG "Excellence with EIM" award for sustainable information and knowledge management solutions. Last year, a project from the legal sector was one of the award winners for the first time: "Introduction of a global eFile in the contract organisation at Henkel". This confirms your approaches. And yet, too few are still following this trend. I have the feeling that an initial spark is still missing. Perhaps this one: the 2016 Nobel Prize in Economics went to two contract theorists, Bengt Holmström and Oliver Hart?

Ms Ebner: Contract theorists, and I think that's the important thing here, have won this Nobel Prize for Economics. That shows the direction we are heading in.

Steffen Schaar: The right time to design the EIM Compass with you. Thank you very much for your clear messages. It is a task of the times to take on the challenges with vision, expertise and communication. What do you see as your focus?

Ms Ebner: You will know that if you take a look at our study and see which areas of law are becoming important: In addition to data protection, these are IT security, liability issues, protection of expertise and so on. These are not the typical topics that we advised on 20 years ago, but rather the new topics of digitalisation, structural and, above all, agile changes that are coming in. Where do these areas of law apply? On the product itself, on the business model itself. That's why we need to have a broad operational base in these areas and take the company with us accordingly.

Steffen Schaar: Are there tools favoured by the BUJ or, in other words, is the "basic training" of lawyers geared towards digital issues? Is the topic of IT anchored at all, is the topic of knowledge management positioned?

Ms Ebner: That is a very important question. What are the future skills that lawyers need to have? It starts at university. I'm thinking of my sister, who studied architecture. She had to learn how to use CAD programmes at university. That was also a prerequisite for her recruitment. I think we also need digital lawyers who think digitally. That has to start at university. With the LegalTech specialist group, we now want to position ourselves, look at solutions and create an overview. What possibilities are there, how can we optimise the exchange between legal tech manufacturers and companies so that products emerge that can be used by us as in-house lawyers. But as I said, we have to start with the relevant skills of lawyers. Perhaps we also need to focus universities even more on incorporating digitalisation into all areas of their teaching. This also includes law. The character of the individual employee is also important. When I started, I heard a very good lecture on what it's all about: People - People - People. That really stuck with me. It's still an issue, even when we talk about "m-to-m" (editor's note: machine-to-machine), we're still talking about "person to person".

Steffen Schaar: Very good. You also said in your article that we have to reinvent ourselves. By that you mean ourselves, us...?

Ms Ebner: Everyone has to reinvent themselves and that also applies to in-house counsel. But I also believe that it's essentially about the human factor and communication between people and being open to new things. I'm thinking of the weavers' revolts. You can't preserve the old, you have to help shape it and move forward. That's why we as an association have chosen this topic. Because it's something that moves everyone in different constellations at the moment. The one older person perhaps a little less so, who doesn't even use e-mail, but the generation that is driving the economy forward.

Steffen Schaar: Let's go back to the two Nobel Prize winners in economics. The press, which has described this honour, speaks of a behavioural revolution that is necessary. More motivation in the contract, not turning contracts into gags according to the motto "even more favourable, even cheaper, even faster", but formulating goals: InTime - in Quality - inBudget. A behavioural revolution, so wake up, because there is another way. Are you going with us?

Ms Ebner: Yes, we definitely need a behavioural revolution. We need to rethink. We need to move away from the recurring tasks in the area of standard contracts and say that we can hand this over very well to appropriate LegalTech products: Contract analysis, commenting and the like. We need to reorient ourselves and change our behaviour accordingly. When it comes to difficult issues, where our experience is important, where negotiating skills may be required, we need to focus accordingly and help our business. For some, LegalTech is Outlook and Excel, others see it as e-discovery, data or information management. For me, this is almost yesterday's LegalTech again. The LegalTech of tomorrow is what I call artificial intelligence. Software that is able to process customised contracts, processes, the contract itself, the content, the clauses. At the beginning of my career, I had to work with thick contracts and I heard from the business: Tell me, Ms Ebner, can't you do this on three pages? Yes, but you always had to weigh everything up, take every eventuality into account. But I think it will be much easier in the future. We can then concentrate on the really important issues. But there has to be a willingness to do so. This is the shift in tasks that I was talking about.

Steffen Schaar: Purchasing experts say that the honourable businessman no longer exists. That's sad, because people used to say "shake hands at eye level and then honour your word".

Ms Ebner: You raise the issue of trust very strongly. This is the trust that you have and need in order to conclude and fulfil contracts. It's also about this connection with banks - that the bank is the subject of trust in the contractual relationship and once again checks cash flows. If I can come back to the legal aspects at this point, I'm thinking of blockchain and smart contracts. How is this developing? You are probably familiar with smart contracts: contracts that execute themselves. I think the best example of a smart contract is the following: a smart contract triggers payment on its own when the product you have bought has arrived at the buyer. The postman ticks the box, the product has arrived. At that moment, the payment is authorised. This trust, which you need, is also paid for when I deliver my product. Performance and consideration.

Steffen Schaar: Expertise, the willingness to change, communication, IT and values such as trust and commitment. To demand all of this from a corporate lawyer would be presumptuous in one fell swoop. You have coined the term transformation to Lawyer 4.0. Could you please explain your approach?

Ms Ebner: We have already talked a lot about the profession of lawyer and what a lawyer used to be like: with his chamber, with his typist and then in court with his robe. I believe that they have changed accordingly, that they are just as much a part of Industry 4.0 as others. We have to change accordingly. That has to do with the skills we've talked about. We need lawyers who are open to the field of IT, who are becoming digital, who take up the core legal areas of digitalisation and, on the other hand, who are also open and value-oriented with and towards the use of LegalTech. That is the issue of trust. I find it really exciting when you look across the pond to America. This trust is much more strongly characterised there than here. I met an American in a meeting who is married to a German. He has everything here on his mobile phone, via the cloud, via Dropbox. He has his entire office on his mobile phone. His wife has everything neatly organised on paper in folders in her office at home. That's the difference, a little exaggerated on both sides of course. The American has complete trust in IT, whereas here in Germany it is not yet a given, e.g. in the cloud. It could be hacked into. I think we really still need to bring about this social change. You can only do that by experiencing it every day and then realising at some point that there aren't that many security gaps. I mean, we're upset that Deutsche Telekom has been hacked. People used to steal sensitive data. There has always been industrial espionage. I don't think it should be held in such high regard now. Of course it's important that we have IT security. Of course it is.

Steffen Schaar: "Hand on heart" - do you put your important company data, with the management board contracts, your top contracts in the cloud?

Ms Ebner: I'm also a bit German at this point, as I'm also a bit sceptical about this. I wouldn't go into every cloud, but I believe that there have to be sufficient security precautions in place. If these are in place, then I also think that you can go there accordingly.

Steffen Schaar: I agree with you. We need to take a close look and develop trust with IT security. Setbacks and experiences are the driving force behind CIP - continuous improvement processes. Do you want to accelerate this process with the LegalTech expert group and your study? Have you found protagonists with both measures who say "I'm in", and was it easy?

Ms Ebner: Well, it was very easy. We have an excellent partner in CMS Hasche Sigle. They are a very strong law firm in the IT sector. There hasn't yet been a truly representative study that deals with digitalisation in the legal department. We wanted to look at how it affects work processes, areas of law and legal advice. We surveyed over 1,000 companies and had a response rate of just under 30%, which is really good in this field of study. We developed questions about what is important to us as a legal department, which topics and areas of law: For over 90% of respondents, it is data security, then IT security comes next and then know-how protection. We also have this wonderful result that over 70% see digitalisation as a challenge, and even 2/3 as an opportunity. This was also very important for us to see what the trend actually is. That inspired me. This was the first step in the digitalisation process for us. The second step was to set up the LegalTech specialist group and the Digitalisation specialist group and work with the results. We are now tackling the topics of data protection, IT security, contract law and liability in the Digitalisation Expert Group and are trying to implement them as experts. We will then develop political position papers, e.g. on the issue of data ownership. If we go back to the contract theorists - Hobbes, Locke or Rousseau - who placed property at the centre in order to use it for economic exploitation. That's why we think about data ownership all the time. What is important, however, is the economic usability of the data. That is the change we need to make now. Because if there is ownership, then you only have limited access and limited possibilities. Is that what we need in this day and age, or do we need more rights to use this data in order to generate knowledge from it?

Steffen Schaar: "Data as a virtual commodity", "Knowledge management as the number one competitive factor", "Data is the gold of the 21st century" - you can already sense that something is different. The corporate culture is crying out for the good old values. Clear and understandable - what help can we expect from corporate lawyers?

Ms Ebner: What was it like when I started in the legal department at Siemens: Please Ms Ebner, for housewives and board members. We always had to write an executive summary first. Then we could write detailed explanations. When I started at Siemens, I was a young woman in a construction helmet and steel-toed shoes standing in front of a row of engineers and explaining to them how they had to live their contract. That's a speciality, you can't just report from an ivory tower. You have to tell them very clearly where you're going. The close integration with the operational business is the asset they have as in-house lawyers. That's why we understand the business models much better.

Steffen Schaar: A plea for the legal departments as a strong link between administrative management and the organisation of successful processes? The in-house lawyer as business advisor?

Ms Ebner: If the lawyers or in-house lawyers are involved in the design of products and new business models from the outset, they can help to facilitate rapid implementation by contributing their expertise in areas such as data protection and IT solutions. Does the product fulfil the legal requirements and IT security specifications? Politicians are still considering additional product liability for data and IT security. These are all issues that are legally characterised and will have to be incorporated into these new business models and products. We are directly involved in our business processes, in our management. Our great strength as in-house lawyers is that we are not external lawyers. This enables us to offer a customised solution. Much better than a lawyer who looks at it from the outside as a consultant.

Steffen Schaar: And if you were to introduce an IT solution, what would be your two or three key points that you would absolutely not want to do without?

Ms Ebner: It has to be simple and intuitive. It has to be interoperable. That is very important to me. It doesn't have to be an end in itself, it has to provide assistance, just like a doctor who puts the blood into a diagnostic device and then ticks off the values he would like to have. With this data, which is then very specific and accurate, he can then make a better diagnosis. I would like to have LegalTech software that makes my day-to-day work easier. Maybe I'll also have more free time.

Steffen Schaar: I wish you that. I have come to know and appreciate you as a "power woman". Free time in the digital sense, or what do you do with it?

Ms Ebner: To have more time for the issues that make up people as a whole, not the people in the company, the company lawyers, the working people, but the family people, the social people too. I am also an honorary member of the board of the Berlin Chamber. For me, work and being a mother of three children always go hand in hand with my family life. You need leisure time, space to question yourself ethically and your own values. In today's world of management, everything is sometimes so busy that you don't have the opportunity to think about where you're going. What values do I actually represent? I think values are incredibly important. You need core values and must remain adaptable at the same time. You need core values that run through your life - professionally, socially and in the family.

Steffen Schaar: A nice transition to the starting point of our idea - values instead of functions. Ms Ebner, thank you for this extremely friendly and interesting interview. On behalf of our readers, I wish you and the BUJ much strength and perseverance for the exciting challenges of the digital age.